The Leadership Wake-Up Call: You Can’t Lead What You Won’t Own Dan Tocchini on Radical Responsibility and Real Growth.

"You Can’t Explain Your Way Out of What You Behaved Your Way Into" — With Dan Tocchini

In this episode of It’s an Inside Job, I sit down with Dan Tocchini—an expert in transformational leadership with over 35 years of experience helping individuals and organizations shift out of stuck mindsets and into powerful action.

Dan shares what it really takes to lead through change—not just on a team level, but also personally. We explore the emotional and cognitive roadblocks that stop people from acting on their best intentions, and how to cut through them with clarity, boldness, and responsibility.

In this conversation, we explore:

• Why change is the normal, not the exception—and what to do when we resist it.
• The importance of crafting a well-defined destination as a leader or individual.
• How our internal biases, assumptions, and fear responses keep us locked in survival mode.
• Why we need to challenge our own thinking before we can lead others.
• Dan’s concept of the victim–responsibility spectrum, and how it applies to leadership and conflict.
• What it means to take bold, not incremental, action in times of transformation.
• The surprising role of language and listening in spotting blind spots and reshaping culture.

Dan doesn’t hold back. He brings honest stories—from personal moments with his wife to executive coaching sessions—and offers direct, applicable insights to help us face what's hard, take responsibility, and keep moving forward.

Key Takeaway:

“You can’t explain your way out of what you behaved your way into.”
Change starts with honest self-inquiry, clear vision, and the willingness to act—especially when it’s uncomfortable.

About Dan Tocchini:

Dan is a leadership strategist and transformational consultant who’s worked with executive teams from brands like ESPN, Interstate Batteries, and Impulse Space. He specializes in helping organizations and individuals break free from self-imposed limitations to create bold, lasting change.

Chapters

• 0:45 Meeting Dan Tocchini
• 13:33 Making Decisions and Self-Reflection
• 25:41 Communicate Generously: Trust and Listening
• 30:58 The Shit Hors d'oeuvre Principle
• 38:59 Embracing Change and Setting Goals
• 41:08 Uncovering Conversational Positioning
• 45:07 The 20-80 Rule and Winning Over the Middle
• 51:52 Addressing Avoided Problems and Betrayal
• 55:05 Leadership Transition from Performer to Coach
• 56:12 The Natural Conflict of Change
• 57:10 Identifying Normal, Abnormal, and Pathological Problems
• 1:00:43 Spectrum of Victimhood and Responsibility
• 1:02:39 Tangible Action and Personal Accountability

Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:08] Back to It's an Inside Job podcast. I'm your host, Jason Lim.
Now, this podcast is dedicated to helping you to help yourself and others to become more mentally and emotionally resilient so you can be better at bouncing back from life's inevitable setbacks.
Now, on It's an Inside Job, we decode the science and stories of resilience into practical advice, skills, and strategies that you can use to impact your life and those around you.
Now, with that said, let's slip into to the stream.

[0:36] Music.

[0:45] Hey folks, welcome back to the show. It's an inside job. I'm your host, Jason Lim.
Here we are at the top of a fresh new week with a fresh new episode.
Today, I have the privilege of sitting down with Dan Tocchini.
He's a seasoned expert in leadership development who who has dedicated over 35 years to helping leaders ignite the spark of magic within their teams.
Throughout his career, Dan has worked closely with executive teams from renowned companies like Interstate Batteries and ESPN, as well with innovative startups such as SmartyPant Vitamins and Impulse Space.
So in today's episode, Dan explores the dynamics of change, emphasizing clarity in objectives and challenging perceptions.
He also discusses cognitive barriers, organizational dynamics, and strategies for implementing change, advocating bold action and ownership.
You know, Dan's insights from this conversation offer valuable perspectives on personal responsibility and organizational transformation, providing practical strategies for navigating growth and driving success.
So without further ado, let's slip into the stream and meet Dan Tocchini.

[1:50] Music.

[1:58] Oh, thank you for having me, Jason. I appreciate the time. And I know it's pretty late for you, right?
Yeah, I think it's probably a six, seven hour difference between you and I.
I was wondering if we could maybe kick off the conversation by you introducing who you are and what you do.
Right. Well, my name is Dan Tocchini, and I have been, I call it transformationalist for 40 years, Which just means my specialty is bringing something that has never been before into existence.

[2:29] You know, if it's going to be, if it's going to happen, it's a transformationalist is basically making something happen that never happened before.
Like actually, it's not like you make it, you actually give yourself to it in a way that it turns out.
And our byline is turning leadership into leadership because it's so easy to gesture at leadership and even look the part.
But, you know, the way you find out what somebody is made of is what are the fruits of their actions?
What, you know, what comes out of it? And we specialize in that particular domain and love to have where the guys you call when there's something not working.
You've tried everything or at least everything you know how to do. and um we are good at finding it you know we're not we're not certain we're confident that whatever it's going to take we will be willing to put you know put ourselves at stake that way to have it turn out and i think leadership in the sense that is key when it when we're facing change you know logically we've all heard it ad nauseum that change is inevitable it is part of the landscape And logically, everyone understands this.
But emotionally, a lot of people thinking, I just wanted to go after all this chaos. I wanted to go back to normal.
I wanted to go the way it was.

[3:50] And this is what I want to kind of discover with you in the next hour and kind of pick your expertise, your brain and, you know, how you see it.
Because you've worked with a number of organizations, and obviously you have a broad spectrum of these different industries and different businesses.
And there's going to be some touch points that overlap in what you've learned over your years as a professional.
What has changed for you from a leadership perspective? How should we see change happening?
Well, I mean, first off, change is the normal. You know, we were talking about this, you and I, beforehand.
And people kind of look at, oh, change, this isn't normal. No, actually, change is the constant.

[4:31] And I think that brings up the first point, that what you resist persists.
So if I resist the change, because I don't want to let go of the old order, whatever is trying to die so something new can be born again, end, then I'm going to experience a magnet and it's going to magnify the pain.
It's going to create a lot of unnecessary pain and distraction that, you know, because I'm going to keep trying to keep the old order in place.
And so the first step is the willingness to acknowledge that this is just part of the process.
It's part of the passage from, you know, from nothing into something. You know what I mean?
Yes, for sure. For sure. You know, the brain likes to have one foot in uncertainty and one foot in uncertainty.
But change for a lot of people is like going outside of the city walls where the barbarians are and it's complete sort of wild territory.
And so you get all this resistance. And obviously, this is something you know.
But, you know, how important is it to, you speak about a well-defined destination.
What do you mean by that? And how does a leader create a well-defined destination?
And why is that so important?

[5:45] Well, because you want to know when you're succeeding.
You want to have an idea of the destination or where you're headed and what are the results that are going to indicate the signposts that are indicating you're on the right path.
It's the things that are happening that need to happen because those are the things that would occur in order to bring forth what matters to you.
And while that I think that's a pretty well known principle that have a clear vision at least how does it play out and then I think the most important part and what I think a lot of.

[6:24] Um, leadership miss is that the way to the future is in the current reality that all possibility is grounded in the current reality that you live in.
And current reality is includes not only the circumstances that you're in and all the things that are happening circumstantially, but it also includes how I'm thinking about it, how the other people on my team are thinking about it.
And that That part of current reality is constantly in flux.
So I want to be connected to how I'm seeing things. I want to be able to manage myself first. I've got to master myself.
I've got to understand my thoughts. I've got to, like, I can't believe everything that comes into my brain.
I've got to understand what thinking is going to be most resourceful here.
And because that's one thing I can do. I don't have to believe everything I think. But I've got to have some way of thinking where I'm clear about the thoughts and the ways of relating that are going to bring forth what I'm committed to.

[7:27] And that's not a real difficult issue. If I'm really clear about what I'm aiming at, and you're a neuroscience background, I'll tell you this, your brain will order the hierarchy of concerns that will bring that forward.
Forward and the minute and it's really an interesting dynamic because we can change in a second i can shift my aim from having something turn out to protecting myself in a second or to looking good or to feeling good in a second so when those hierarchies change when i'm concerned about what you think of me more than i am about what it is i'm committed to have turn out that'll show up early now the question is do i have the awareness do i have the courage to take on my own thinking in a way that i can recognize that when it's still a small thing before it starts to play out and cost more and more to correct as i act into an aim that isn't what i said i was really about and so checking into current reality is key can i connect with what's wanted and needed needed right now and utilize that to bring forth the vision.

[8:45] So yes, I guess that's a lot of words to answer your question.
But I guess yes, you want to have a clear view of what you're aiming at so that when you mix it up in the current reality, you can identify what's there that's relevant to act on that'll open up the most likely space for that future to occur.

[9:06] You know, because I think that's very important what you've articulated, Dan, because I mean, obviously a leader, whether I'm leading myself in a personal change or professional change or I'm leading a team or an organization, obviously, as you so eloquently said, you know, sometimes our brain spit out stupid thoughts, silly thoughts, right?
And we can't believe everything our brains spit out.
And then on top of that, there's the emotional baggage that can come with it or the emotional, the emotions that can taint how we see current reality or we, instead of seeing it as temporary, we see it as, oh, this is going to last forever.
But I mean, you, with your deep experience, how do you coach leaders to mentally and emotionally process their thoughts and their emotions to find a sense of clarity?

[9:56] Because I understand if someone's moving, even they have an idea, this is where we want to move.
There's always going to be some level of self-doubt and self-criticism, as again, from my experience.
But how what advice would you give or how do you help people find mental emotional clarity so they can move towards that well-defined destination well i think it's a great question um there's a lot in that question how do what let me just be clear how do i help them find that sense of confidence that or that they're the direction like what direction to head into uh like what what would be the biggest possibility for what you're committed to having turnout?
And is that accurate?
Yes. Yes. I mean, people are going to have sometimes doubts about they think we want to head in this direction, but sometimes they'll pick up some news or they'll pick up some information, information, knowledge.
And all of a sudden there's this confusion.

[10:56] There's this doubt, there's anxiety, but they have to lead themselves in an organization through it.
But what's holding them back is the emotions and and the the negative thinking or the rumination yeah the rumination so one of the things so there's a number of things we do but one of the things i would talk about is that thought let's just say emotions are thoughts trapped in the body looking for language and i don't think people stop long enough to investigate their thoughts And it's really interesting because Tufts, Harvard, and MIT business schools did a long study about what is it that tends to undermine the successful manifestation of a team's goals.
And they went right down into the individual.
What stops individuals from doing what they know they need to do or being successful?
And 87% of all these breakdowns are cognitive.

[12:01] In other words, the possibilities to have it turn out are present, but I see those possibilities usually as threats because they're calling me out of my comfort into the unknown, into an area that I need to go into, but I'm not familiar with the territory.

[12:19] So what we have a tendency to do is that survival takes over.
I'm afraid that I'm going to look bad, be wrong, be uncomfortable, be out of control.
And and when those things show up my aim goes from what i say i'm committed to having happened the future i'm committed to down to protecting myself from what looks like a threat and let's get real i mean if you're going to have anything become a reality it's going to call on you to sacrifice certain things that you have up until that point been able to enjoy right it's not an an accident that life calls us into these journeys and i think a lot of times people get restless and stuck and angry or resentful because they don't want to answer the cow the the calling of the next adventure the next you know the next the next risk the next sacrifice that's probably going to need to be made for what i say matters to me and um i think that's probably one of the the biggest areas we focus on.
And you can hear that in people's language because, you know, look, one of the things I've learned is that people never make a bad decision.

[13:33] Okay. Okay. Yeah. Please elaborate on that.

[13:38] Yeah. So people always make the best decision they see available to them.

[13:43] Right. So it may not be the best decision, but it's the best one they see available from their perspective.
That's right. Exactly. So when somebody, you know, you ever do that, you look at, so what somebody does, I watched the, uh, the, um, Darwin awards, you know, they used to be on YouTube all the time.
I haven't seen him in years, but it's basically people who who die because they do stupid things but you got to remember they're not stupid things they're doing those are the best choices they thought that they saw available to them so they took them i remember one of them one guy tied himself to a bottom of a truck to understand why his transmission was going out he couldn't figure it out and so he had somebody drive the truck while he was under and he killed him right now that looks like a dumb decision but to him it was the best decision he saw available so unless we get to unless we challenge our own thinking we're going to have a tendency to reproduce the same breakdown over and over again in with the different circumstances and that's you can tell when an executive's there because they're cynical and despairing and usually biting and sarcastic because everything they they've done, they thought was the best, hasn't turned out.
So then rather than challenge their thinking, they think that it's impossible or nobody can do it because they can't do it.
Or there's a number of different justifications for not going again.

[15:09] And that's a lot of our work is by breaking down those mindsets.
And we can listen to, like I said, people don't make a dumb decision.
They don't make a stupid decision. They make the best decision they see available.
And they always act congruently with the way the world occurs for them.
That you and I always act congruently with what we think is going on.
And so knowing that, you can look at somebody's behavior and go, oh, did you notice you did this? I wonder what generated this action.
It doesn't seem congruent with what you said you're committed to.
But it does seem congruent with this, with this mindset, how to protect yourself or something like that.
And if you can get people to look at that and you can do it without being punitive or, you know, needing to make them wrong because it's just part of the brain's job.

[16:01] To warn you when you're going to step into something you've never done before or it looks potentially dangerous.
So there's nothing wrong with that. We all walk through it.
I have a number of people I bring my ideas to who help me think through them because my bias often, very often, is in the way.
And so by challenging those thoughts and the way to do that is to first First, notice how the world's occurring to me based on my actions, and then realize that the way the world occurs for people happens in language.

[16:35] So if I listen to my language, if I listen to your language, I can see, I can get a good idea of where I should probably start an inquiry to understand why what you want to do seems like the best choice, because it looks like to me it's going to take you off course, but but you think it's going to bring you on course, I can be inquisitive because it may very well be something I don't see. So I can inquire.
And in that inquiry, I can start to test our worldviews. And that's where, you know, iron sharpens iron, we can sharpen each other.
But if I'm all caught up in worried, worrying about how you think of me, or what, you know, am I going to get that raise? Am I going to get what I want?
I'm going to that. That aim won't allow me to have those conversations because they look too dangerous because they threaten what I'm really going after.
And that becomes obvious in an inquiry.
And then people, they'll shift. I've seen people shift multiple hundreds of thousands of times.
The key is, can I present it in a way that's inviting, that's supportive, that they get it's aligned with what their commitment is?

[17:48] Because what it sounds like also what you're saying is that sometimes you know leaders or even if we're leading ourselves into a new paradigm or new change and such it's important to sometimes seek counsel to seek an external coach because you get so lost or an organization can get so lost in their own subjective culture their own subjective way things by bringing a professional such as yourself in or your consultants or whoever a coach whatever just outside eyes that that are committed outside yeah yeah absolutely i'm not the culture that's one of the advantages right i bring people into our culture to help us see what we're doing for the same reason right and that's it takes a certain level of courage and commitment to submit yourself to that because you're going to find out what you're not seeing and if if that's not okay with you you're probably going to stumble a lot you're going to have a lot of unnecessary pain and suffering until until you're willing to invite outside eyes that you get are competent.
Now, there's a lot of people out there who say they're competent.
So, you know, how do you find them?
That's a whole other set of questions and inquiry and so on and so forth.

[18:56] Yeah, because the other thing I heard you also say is meet people where they are.
You didn't say in so many words, but understand their perspective.
Don't assume you understand their perspective.
And as you said, inquire, be inquisitive, ask a bunch of questions to discover.
And then obviously you can tell your message. So that creates a clear or defined destination for them and the benefits they get from that.

[19:19] Yeah. And well, there's a couple of reasons for that. I mean, one, they have the expertise to solve the problem or they wouldn't be in the business they're in. they wouldn't have the level of success they have.
I don't know their business like them, but I do know human beings, you know, in a way that I make that my study. So that's my business.
So I can help them look at the things they normally wouldn't look at that may open up possibility.

[19:41] And I can test my own ideas because, you know, there's a lot of conversations that we're familiar with.
You know, how often I'll never forget. I had a conversation with my wife once and I thought for sure I knew what she was talking about and we it was a really rough period of our relationship we've been married we've been together for 47 years something like that 48 years and this was way back when I was a young man and I had been unfaithful and I had confessed it and I was ashamed and you know she forgave me but she didn't know if she wanted to stay with me which was completely understandable and so I we made an agreement that we go to us you know we'd sleep in separate rooms we had a baby boy he's now 40 he was a year old not even a year old and um we knew that we were always going to be tied together with my son and as a family so whether we lived together and stayed married or not so we both agreed that we would sleep in separate rooms and we would talk through some of the things and it and she forgave me but she didn't know if she wanted to stay with me and i said i completely understand and so we agreed to do this for a year at least and see what we thought on the other end of it. And we stopped any kind of intimacy.

[20:56] And I slept in a separate bedroom. We'd talk in the morning and have breakfast.
And then I'd go off to work and then come home at night and play with my son and her.
And we'd talk a bit, but we'd play with him mostly.
Anyway, after about a month of this, we had bought a new house.
And we weren't making enough money. We had a lot of savings, but we were chipping away at the savings. So I would ask her at breakfast, you know, I don't think we can keep this house.
And if we do, you know, we've got to make more money. And I'm working this job.
I can't I'm working 60, 70 hours a week. There's no way I can do anything else.
Will you help? And we get into an argument. And I would say, well, you don't want to help.
And she goes, I didn't say that. And I'd storm off to work to go help people communicate. I'd throw a tantrum and leave.
And I'd come home that night. We wouldn't talk about it because Danny was up. So we'd play with Danny.
And then put him to bed and we'd go to bed. And the next morning we'd have the same conversation.
Of course, I blew up even earlier and stormed out of the house.
And then that same night, same thing, we'd play with Danny and went to bed.
Next morning I get up and there's a tape recorder on the counter.
And I go, well, what's that? She goes, well, somebody, we're not listening to each other. Maybe it's good we record the conversation to see how we're listening.

[22:09] And I said, okay, good. So turn it on. And we're talking and within a half hour, you know, we forgot it's on and we're in the conversation.
And I'm starting to elevate and I'm saying well you so you don't want to help she goes I didn't say I didn't want to help and I I said yes you did I heard you with my own ears and she goes she she goes I get ready to storm out she goes stop Dan don't leave please let's see what the tape recorder said so I said okay put it on so she turns it on this is what it said you know I went through the whole thing about yeah yes that's not and I go so you you know what can you do and she She goes, well, I'm committed to helping Dan.
I just don't want to leave Danny at a babysitter.
And I said, so you don't want to help? And she goes, I didn't say that.
And then I turned the tape recorder off and I said, all right, you didn't say that, but that's what you meant.
And she started crying. And I thought for sure she was trying to manipulate me.
So, you know, I'm kind of a street guy. I grew up in the streets and I backed off and thought about it. and I thought, okay, well, she's, I don't know if she's trying to con me or not. So I'm just going to, I know.
So if you're going to help honey, how would you help? Like, okay, show me what you would do.
Yeah. You know, you say you want to, but every time I say do something, you say, you don't want a babysitter. How can you help?
And she pulled out a two page business plan out of her purse that she'd been sitting on for a daycare in the house.

[23:31] And it was at that moment, I realized I I didn't know her like I thought I did, and I was jousting with my bias towards her.

[23:41] I was I was projecting what I thought I, you know, I was obviously projecting what I probably would do onto her because I can be vindictive.
And when I saw that, I realized how much I'd missed her.
And that opened up a whole level of conversation we had never had up until that point.

[24:02] And within I think within 30 days, she had to put a note on my bed telling me not only did she forgive me, but please come back to bed.
She wanted to stay with me you know so i went after about five months was we were reconciled and we've been tight ever since but it just we've had a number of those kinds of incidences with each other where each of us might be laying our assumptions on the other without testing them, that's a big deal you know i don't care how familiar a conversation is i really don't know for sure what's over there till I test it.
And there's a tendency in survival. And I'm sure you know this.
I mean, the body is set up, the brain is set up to preserve the body, to keep it alive, to survive.
And it's also set up to save energy in case it needs it to survive.
That's why when somebody says something to us, we think we already know.
We shut down. We don't want to talk about it because we already know it and the body doesn't want to waste the energy.
But it's It's literally that kind of self-management. It requires some patience to really understand where somebody is.
And I can't tell you how many times I've discovered things that I wasn't even aware of in a conversation where I already thought I knew what was going to be said.

[25:19] So I get into the practice and we work on constantly checking into what we're assuming about what's being said.
I mean, that sounds like a seminal moment in your life that obviously probably colored how you also do business, because I think something that you wrote, which I thought I really liked, you said, yeah.

[25:41] Uh communicate generously instead of broadcasting and so communicating obviously it's not just talking but what i also hear is the other side of the coin which you emphasize it's inquiry and listening understand get of course you're going to have your biases and your assumptions we all do but it's it's it's recognizing that that's what i hear you're saying but then pushing through that through questioning and listening as you said with your wife she had to whatever was business plan which was like a little shock and awe i guess for you oh it was as you pulled that out shock and awe and humbling you know but you know out of it we came up we just said look argue like you're right but listen like you could be wrong like you can do that i can be very passionate about what i believe but then i can be quiet and listen to what somebody else has to say and listen like Like, where might I be missing it here?

[26:34] What is it I'm not seeing? What are they saying that I might not be hearing?
What am I making up? I can test all that with them in the conversation.
And when somebody actually sees you're willing to do that, it creates a good faith in the relationship.
It has to do with trust. And trust is such a misconceived reality that I cannot say enough about it.
It most people do not understand at least what i think trust is they i i found it to be completely different or distinct from what the culture calls trust can you operationally define trust dan from how you see it because i think that's a very important point you've just made yeah i can't so normally the way we operate right is you and i are hanging together we're doing something something together.
And I say, Jason, um, you say, I said, would you do this? Would you do this for me? And you say, yes, I will. Right. And you deliver.
And I go, God, that's great. And every time we make an agreement, you deliver.

[27:40] I then say to myself, you're trustworthy until you don't.
Then I'm shocked. Like there's, so there's like three levels of trust, basic levels.
There's naive trust, like a kid has. and and then when his parents betray him because they're like god to him at first there's this devastation and they usually swing way over to cynical or skeptical they swing way over to not trusting and then they wait till they see that it's in their mind worthy of trust like i just described like you earned my trust right okay so that is not really trust.

[28:20] That's that's trying to i'm trying to predicate future actions on past delivery you know past successes that's not that's not trust and the minute that you break your word then you're you not only broke your word you're not trusted and you're not trustworthy in that mindset, In my mindset, what I say is I bestow trust upon you.
And I do that because I see it's worth it's what I'd want you to do with me.
And so then what happens is when you don't keep your word, I say, oh, there must be something missing here that I'm missing, that we're missing together.
I'm going to investigate to understand it because, A, you broke your promise.
But it's more like, oh, you missed. okay i wonder you're still trusted and you're trustworthy and that's why i'm investigating what was missing to see what's wanted and needed and that in that space i can really i can connect with who's really over there and make a decision about how i'm going to engage with them from then on.

[29:34] The next step. If I notice that they don't want to engage or that they don't want to do the inquiry, okay, well then that tells me a lot about where they're at and how I want to engage with them until we can come to some understanding.
It's not like a problem. It's not like they're evil. They're not bad, wrong, or broken, which is what happens the brain goes to.
Oh, there's something bad, wrong, or broken with them or me.
Well, what if it was just that there's something wanted and needed and I haven't seen it yet?
There's something missing and the broken promise is indicating that the relationship requires something that's missing. I wonder what that is.
And that might very well be we separate, go our own ways. But if we do, it's going to be much more amicable.
And I'm not going to take the bitterness into the next relationship because I'm going to be able to see how I contributed to it. And I can own that going forward.
And that speaks a lot to self-awareness, being able to practice this enough so you can step back, you know, tap the brakes so you can actually listen and question and understand.
And hopefully your assumptions are wrong about the person and you have a much more realistic picture of them.
Yeah, I'm pretty in touch with my own darkness. darkness so it's pretty i think the more you touch that the harder it is to.

[30:58] You know it's it's it's harder to judge somebody else i mean i've done some bad things and i've hurt people and knowing that i don't you know it's like how often do i when i see myself as the good guy in anything i know i'm i'm probably afraid of something because if it's breaking down between this and we had a we have a relationship and it's been working and it starts to break down i had i'm a co i'm a co in the relationship i wonder what i'm missing i'm not where did this breakdown show up that i was unwilling to see it as one of the questions i ask myself like you know if i missed something before this would i want to know well yeah i would i wonder where this broke breakdown started i i have this thing called my grandfather taught me it's called the the shit shit hors d'oeuvre principle. He would say, shit hors d'oeuvre, okay.
He would say, Junior, when something doesn't work, it comes as an hors d'oeuvre.
And if you look at me and go, I don't want to eat that shit hors d'oeuvre.
And so you push it away. But if you don't eat it, then what's going to happen is it eventually is going to come back and haunt you.

[32:11] It's going to, in other words, it's going to return as a shit sandwich.
And then if you don't eat that and you push that away it's coming back as a two course meal and if you push that away you've got a buffet, And so when do you want to eat it? Like when, like you don't like it, but it's actually there for you to learn something about what you really want to have happen.
So why not understand it now when it's this big before it gets this big?
So if it gets to a place where it breaks down and I, I'm surprised, I wonder what I didn't see leading up to this, you know, like what, and I can tell, I have so many stories where where I've missed it and looked it up and then wanted to blame the other person.
But I can look back and see that, you know, I didn't want to confront this there because I wouldn't get what I needed from this person or something like that.
I discover some motive that I'm, you know, I'm like an accomplice in the situation.

[33:08] So, and I don't mean that in a moralistic way. It just means that I can take that power back.
I can forgive them. I can send myself from the offense and I can, I can reestablish my relationship to them.
Now they may not want to reestablish it with me, but I can be clear and move on in a sense of peace because I've actually found the log in my own eye, if you will.
Yeah. Yeah. And as you said, it's almost like a health thing.
You know, if, if you know something's kind of inkling your way and you feel it's like maybe get that checked out before it blows up into something that you can't really tackle.
Oh and it's it can be oh i mean i i had a guy who worked for me years ago and he wore a he wore a hairpiece right okay and we're out we're out swimming in this little island in hawaii and and the water washed over him i could tell his hairpiece i didn't know he had go hey man you're wearing a piece huh and he got so mad at me he goes never talk to me about it i don't want to hear about don't talk to me about it and i i i thought that's weird we've never had that kind kind of realized, wow.
And I didn't say anything. I just backed off. And, um.

[34:17] And I kept thinking about it. And about six months later, I discovered he was having an affair with somebody on a team that we had. And it was a big blow up.
And, you know, and I realized that conversation showed up many months before on the hairpiece thing. He's so vain.
If I would have addressed that there, I might have gotten a whole look at his character.
That would have clued me into and maybe even helped him see what's what wanted and needed that. Because it really fouled the relationship with our client.
And I had to go in there and clean it up. And he ended up leaving. And we stayed friends.
He died at 51 a few years back.
And I still was connected to him. In fact, he made me the executive as well with his family.
But it was really, you know, that whole situation really scattered his life.
And if i i've often thought if i would have pursued that conversation who knows what it might have opened up on that island about his hair and how that related to his vanity and it was insecurity yeah but i i guess there's always wisdom in hindsight and you probably would have but i guess at that point you saw the emotional reaction from the guy and it's like okay whatever it is some vulnerability you didn't want to open up in the guy so i can i i i have this guy come come to work with us just uh about a year and a half two years ago and really talented guy and he.

[35:44] He said here's what he said we were talking and he was interviewing with my partners because he's coming on as a partner should we really want him to come work with us and he said something to me he goes you know dan you and i we kind of came through a very similar experience we came out of the human potential moment and you you know he was uh had worked with winner at heart and i So he was one of my mentors.
And, you know, he goes, you and I have this common language, but Adrian doesn't.

[36:14] Now, that, I go, why did, now, that really hit me sideways, right? Like, what?
And we're talking about, well, this guy has made it through a lot of interviews.
He's done a little work with, he's been, he's pretty gifted.
And immediately I'm like, that, there's something missing there.
And I remembered that conversation on the island. So I went to him and I said, why did you tell me that?
What was the purpose for telling me that you and I have an understanding that Adrian doesn't have?

[36:45] He goes, oh, I just wanted to make a connection. I said, yeah, but the nature of your connection is it's like witchcraft.
It's divide and conquer. It's like now you and I have something that Adrian doesn't.
And that's concerning to me because I don't want divide and conquer.
We're not in that kind of competition.
I think you ought to talk to Adrian about it. He goes, well, it's not really a big deal.

[37:09] But in pursuing that conversation, we discovered that this guy really was insecure secure and wasn't going to be a good culture fit, even though he's gifted and he's probably going to do well on his own. We just, I was just straightforward.
And I said, I really don't want you at the table with us. It doesn't work for me.
The way you've handled this discussion, rather than try to understand what we are thinking or what we're seeing, you keep defending, which causes me to even go deeper in my concern because you're not, well, it's not a problem that you have, you might have some envy or you're trying to, you're feeling awkward or any of that that's human what the problem for me is what you're making up about the conversation interesting yeah and that opened we knew we saved ourselves a lot of money and a lot of trouble and at least and we have a much you know even though he's a little tender with us.

[37:58] You know he didn't it wasn't no it was no drama it worked out well right but that came directly from that i like like what i spiked in that conversation about the hairpiece was when my my innards aren't right.
When I don't, when I have, like you said, a doubt, I want to get language on it and I want to explore it.
It could be a judgment I have of him. I will repent.
I'll get off it. I'll redesign myself.
Or I want to see where he is. And if he's really open to exploring it, that's a whole nother world. You can go anywhere you want with me.
I mean, I came out of a criminal background. So I, I'm, you know, I don't want an accomplice. I want friends.

[38:40] I want committed to me and my commitment and are willing to risk our approval of each other.

[38:44] Music.

[38:52] One of my conversations with Dan Tocchini. The conversation centers around embracing

[38:56] change as an integral part of growth and success.
Dan emphasizes the significance of having a well defined destination or goal.
Arguing that clarity is one's objective is crucial for recognizing success and progress.
He challenges the common misconception that future possibilities are solely based on the current reality, which includes not only external circumstances, but also personal and team perceptions, all of which are in constant flux.
Dan also underscores the importance of self-awareness and the ability to critically assess one's thoughts and emotions.
He notes that much of what hinders the achievement of goals is cognitive, with people often perceiving potential opportunities as threats, which does in turn trigger a survival instinct that favors immediate comfort over long-term gains.
Now, this fear-based approach can lead people to resist necessary sacrifices for growth as they cling to current comforts such as certainty and control.

[39:57] Also, highlighting the human tendency to make the best decisions perceived available at the time, well, Dan suggests that without challenging our thinking, well, we're likely to repeat the same mistakes.
He advocates for questioning our assumptions and biases to avoid getting trapped by them.
Understanding that actions reflect a person's worldview, he stresses the value of external perspectives to reveal blind spots in our self-perceptions and our thinking patterns.
In other words, our assumptions and our biases. biases.
Dan advises adopting a mindset of being open to being wrong and actively seeking alternative viewpoints as a way to invest energy into personal and professional development.
This approach, as summarized by Dan's principle of, argue like you're right, but listen like you're wrong, encourages a balance between confidence in one's belief and the openness to new ideas, fostering a culture of continuous inquiry and growth.
So now let's slip back into the stream with part two of my brilliant conversation.

[40:58] Music.

[41:08] Fascinating it's almost a spidey sense you know the spider-man right that sense he gets when something's off you know you could sit on a new york subway and you could sit there everything looks normal but something inside you kind of clicks and you know it's just like okay there's something your subconscious picked it up oh you're thinking you know what i'm gonna just get up and just diplomatically walk down to the end or go into the next car right because you can't pick it up consciously but your unconscious mind is this vast processing machine it's picked up signals so that's kind of the connection that's right it's right on and so how do you get language on that right like i i a lot of work i've done i've done some volunteer work i developed a couple of re-entry programs for kids coming out of gangs it's one of the most studied programs in the united states run by an organization called straight ahead ministries on the east coast cert they they have the best recidivism right their recidivism rates like 12 percent instead of 87 and we i i it was my curriculum we trained them and delivered it and and then we did it in a prison and one of the things i went into a prison with a bunch of lifers and we did some work in fact there's a company called a non-profit called crop it's they've.

[42:22] They've had zero recidivism rate after they and they we trained them in prison they were well they were they were uh trustees yeah and it got so that the warden would call me to come in and ask me to interview his trustees because within 10 minutes i can tell whether they're perping or not inside the prison because so think about i i listened i told him i said he goes how do you do that i go well if you listen Listen to how people position themselves in a conversation.

[42:52] Like their predicates, how they position themselves toward what you're talking about.
They'll tell you a lot. And he goes, what do you mean?
I said, well, I listen on a continuum that goes like this. Over here is the victim conversation.

[43:08] And over here is the responsible conversation.
So the farther somebody moves towards victim, the more they're perpetrating.
That's interesting. Because all criminality is, if you listen to a criminal, somebody who's just committed a crime, they're going to tell you why the victim was responsible for them perpetrating it, at some level.
They're justified in their action. The minute you hear an externalization of why they behaved the way they do, you know they're lying.

[43:43] That's very interesting. So you're saying someone with credibility, he or she will take responsibility.
They will take ownership for the foul up or whatever it is that may happen.
Whatever their part was in it, they'll at the very least, they'll look for they'll look for how they contributed.
They're not going to go, hey, it was my history. It was this circumstance here. It was that cop.
It was, you know, and so I and that gets really fine tuned.
Right. So when I sit down with somebody and they're late for the appointment in the prison, they're in a prison.
They only make 10 or 12 decisions a day and they're late for the appointment.
And I say, gosh, what happened there? He had an appointment.
Well, you know, the guard, blah, blah, blah. I already know that's okay. Mark that down.
And then I listened for how many times this person externalizes their experience.
And I watch and notice what they emphasize. I listen for patterns.
I notice what they emphasize and I really notice what they omit.
And I inquire into the omissions in the context of their commitment of whatever we're talking about. And that illuminates more possibility for inquiry.
I think that makes a lot of sense because I think that's very important, especially when we're talking about change in organizations or change in anyone's life.
Yes. You referred to the 28 principle.

[45:08] Sorry. It's called the parade. Yes. Yes. And it's kind of a roundup because the larger the group, the smaller the influence of those driving, you know, producing the results.
20% of the people produce 80% of the results.
I was wondering if you could break that down for us.
You know, the responses from people based on the 28% goal.
I know in your book, you break it down into three numbers, but I thought maybe we could start general and then get more specific.
Because I found it a very interesting point in your book.

[45:42] So if you think about the 20-80 rule, you're going to have, when you implement a change or you want to make a shift in the organization, you're going to have about, you're going to probably have 20-30% of the people are going to be on board.
They're going to go, yeah, yeah, you're right.

[46:03] Let's do this. This looks great. You're going to have another, 20% or 30% that are going to not want to change. They're going to want to keep the status quo.
Those are called the levelers.
In the middle, you have the fence sitters, about 40% to 60%, usually more upwards towards 60% of the people are in the middle.
They don't know for sure.
They're torn with, am I still going to be able to take care of my interest or not?
Now, I can talk about that more distinctly, but the key is, the larger strategy is, you want to work to win the 30 or the 40 or 30 or 40 percent, 20 or 30 percent in the middle, 40 percent in the middle.
The 40 to 60 percent, right? Yeah.
Sitting on the fence, right? 40 to 60 percent. And between the two sides, you want to work to win the guys in the middle.

[46:59] So whenever you engage you want to you want to speak to to to illuminate why this change is good now and and then and you don't want to get caught up with the naysayers trying to help them because they're going to pull the change back to what they want these are the levelers right to the levelers you want to get the levelers up to they either get up or out but the only way you do that is by keep clarifying the change and making sure all of your systems and processes emphasize and support and reward the change.
Now, knowing that strategy at that level, I can then go down to a lower level and start to talk.

[47:45] Engage those who are the 60% that I want to win over.
And when I engage the levelers, I engage them knowing that the fence sitters are watching and how I engage them will help the fence sitters see the value of moving over here.
So now a little more granular.

[48:08] I need to understand, if I make a change, I need to understand what interests individuals on my team are getting satisfied by the current vision.
There are values, there are interests that are being satisfied.
That's why they're aligned. Nobody wants to be led.
People are willing to be led if they see that following the mission is going to ultimately serve them personally.
When they see that, they're in.
So when i make a change i want to make sure that i'm connected with my leadership team at first and they're clear about how this change is going to still serve their interest and maybe even more and if it doesn't i'm going to support them in a very caring way to move to somewhere in either outside the organization in the organization or probably outside the organization that's going going to serve their interest.
I want to help them do that. I want them to get that this is where we're headed.
And if your interest starts, let's have an inquiry about how that serves your interest.
If that doesn't work, let's talk. The more I have that discussion, the more I'm going to win the fence sitters over.
And those who aren't really aligned with that change will move on, which is cool.
And we'll move from there. Right. So it takes that kind of discipline.
And most leaders want to move too fast.
If you slow down and do what I'm talking about, there'll come a point when it'll exponentially flip.

[49:36] It's a tipping point. Yeah, and you've got to expect that when you start this kind of inquiry, it's going to get worse before it gets better.

[49:46] You've got to be up for those conversations.
And again, that comes back to some of the grounding principles you're talking about.
People will have assumptions. You will have assumptions. But there's the question in listening, listening to that spidey sense, you know, picking up on that thread and pulling and see where it takes you. Right.
And obviously that comes with experience to be able to pick out the signal from all the background noise.
You also talk about in your book, subtle, average and bold approaches to change.
I'm wondering if you could elaborate on what you mean by that.
There's no, you don't move slowly into a change.
You've got to make bold moves.
And they've got to be logical and they've got to be aligned with the vision.
And they've got to be congruent with your conversation. And if you miss something, you want to own it and correct.
But you can't gradually make a change.
Change it's not very it's extremely painful and extremely expensive you know you've got to be take incremental jumps and they got to be good leaps and that that you know you've got to that takes some forensics right you've really got to understand your team and then how they relate to their team so one of the things i say is what you don't face now will defeat you later.

[51:13] So if you're going to make a change and you have an executive team that's used to compromising and used to to you know like taking the standard down and not enforcing what's really important in the organization value wise commitment wise financially then when you make the change you're going to find yourself in a quagmire of resistance even more so than naturally occurs because all the issues you didn't approach, you're going to have to talk about and they're going to feel betrayed because they're going to say, why didn't you talk to me about that?

[51:53] Why didn't you write me up there? Why didn't you let me know this wasn't working?
And every leader's got their reason. I didn't want to be micromanaging.
There's a million stories that are all externalized, right?
That's an external. I didn't want to micromanage you. Well, who said you had to micromanage this person to sit down with them and talk about, hey, I noticed this isn't working, or at least it doesn't seem like it's working to me.
Help me think through it. I want to make sure you're feeling supported.
I want to be a resource to you. There's a million ways to enforce something that you think is out without micromanaging, without telling people what to do.
You want to help them think, how do you think?
Let's get clear about your thinking and its impact on your engagement with your team.
What actions is it allowing you to take? What actions do you not see that are possible because you're afraid of what they might bring about? How can I support you?
And so would, just to clarify, so a lot of the time should be used in planning and creating a clear destination, a defined destination.
But once that has been committed to, then you're saying take a bold approach to change.
Yeah. And know what, like one of the conversations I have with the team is once we're clear about the vision, I ask, what do you think this vision is going to call for you?
What prices do you think you're going to have to pay?

[53:18] Like and what and once we get those clear i'm going to say okay now now i want you to magnify whatever you think the prices is put a 10x on that yeah well said because we don't know what's coming, but ask yourself is this worth it who will you become if you answer these challenges that we've that we've enumerated like and what happens is most you got to look at your people like people not tools.
So nobody wants to talk to a tool. They just want the tool to perform.
So leaders will still use stupid expressions like, well, I didn't, I'm not a babysitter. Well, you know, that's interesting.
Who said you were right. But if it's not working, aren't you responsible for your team?
Don't you owe them a stand that they can get behind and they can articulate themselves.
And if they're having trouble, isn't it my job to help?
Like, where are you in the process? I always ask a leader, who are your customers?
And if they talk about the customers they're serving, that the company serves, no.
My customers as a leader is my team.
That's who I really got. I'm there to support them.
And that sounds like an altruistic idea, but it's a very practical idea.
And most leaders have been promoted because they're good individual performers.
Performers and to be an individual to performers, a different set of skills and a different mindset than to be a leader, than to lead a team.

[54:46] Like, and I have to be able to, as a, as a performer, I'm an unconscious competent.
I'm good at what I do. It's in my body. I don't think about it, but to be a leader, I have to be clear about what it takes for me to be,

[55:01] to do what I did and coach it. Like you think about Phil Jackson.
I don't know if you know about the Bulls, right? The Chicago Bulls.
When Michael Jordan played 95-97, wasn't it?
Phil Jackson knew how to get competency in the language.
He knew how to stand in a way that they articulate and create a narrative that people were willing to get up to.
It was enticing for them. They wanted to demand of themselves, including Jordan, to have that turn out.

[55:31] I think what's also important is the idea of change and conflict.
When you're going through change, you're going to kick up dust.
And in that, there's going to be conflict.
A lot of people, including myself, I don't like conflict per se.
But I will have to move into it if I have to have a constructive conflict.
But I think many people have a negative connotation of conflict.
Conflict means a fight. Conflict means I'll destroy the relation.
Conflict means I'll be seen as the bad guy. I don't want to hurt someone.
I'm respectful of your time, Dan. I was just wondering if you could address the idea of conflict and maybe what is the mindset you find is the most appropriate when it comes to conflict and change?

[56:12] Well, first off, conflict is the natural result of change and diversity.
You're going to have different thinking, people with different commitments.
You've got marketing operations.
You've got logistics. You've got people with different agendas that are needed to be met in this.
So if you think you're going to make a change and not have conflict, you're naive and you're going to be greatly handcuffed because you're going to be trying.
Your aim is going to be to avoid the conflict instead of go through the conflict.

[56:43] You're going to try not to be changed by the conflict when, in fact, you need to be changed by the conflict.
You need to learn as much as those around you. So I'm learning through the conflict and I'm inviting them to stand shoulder to shoulder in it.
And that, you know, I'm speaking at a high level.
You know, that goes down right down into how we do our meetings and what we

[57:06] do together, you know, during the day, what processes we implement.
And when problems come up, you know, one of the big things I talk about that gets if you want to get a little more micro on it is there's only three problems you ever face.
And because anytime you implement a change you're going to create a new set of problems there's never not problems there's always challenges they're always there so the question is which challenges are the most important to solve and and i've blown this multiple times where i picked the wrong set of problems and it didn't you know it's like no those aren't the problems and these are the problems that needed to be solved so the way to view the problems is there's only three.
There's a normal problem, there's an abnormal problem, and there's a pathological problem.

[57:56] So the normal problem is like, let's say we start a business, you and me, Jason, and you know, the first couple of years we have some cashflow issues. That's a normal problem.
But if we're in business for eight years and we're having a cashflow problem, that's an abnormal problem and it could be pathological.
So that's one I'm going to focus on.

[58:15] So I look at the context of the business and I look at, okay, what problems are normal for this, where we're at, what we're up to, what we're going up against.
And what are problems that are abnormal and possibly pathological that keep occurring that undermine our progress?

[58:31] Those are the ones I want to go to first. And then I can frame those out and prepare for them.
And I have a whole framework for preparing for a difficult conversation to mine it for possibility.
And i guess part of that is coming back to the fundamentals that we talked up at the top of this episode it's the listening and understanding getting past assumptions getting past our implicit or biases in general in order to do this back connecting with current reality all along the way with having that compass in front of you that beautiful vision and then how does it show up now and given these circumstances how would i presence that now right and so i got to connect with all of it like not run from it because and everything i want to run from i'm going to look at that first because that's how i pay attention to the things i most uncomfortable i've trained myself to go to do that first well dan thank you very much for sharing your knowledge and such we are at the top of the hour and i'm very respectful of your time is there any last advice or wisdom you would would like to leave with our listeners today well i the one thing i hold on to for me whenever i'm working is to keep kicking at the indifference until it bleeds life you know i just keep going after it until what i'm committed to starts to show up there's some life in it and i found that.

[59:55] You know that is the kind of mindset that brings forth the most fruit if i you know and i i i guess that's probably the biggest thing and and the other thing is remember you can't just you can't explain your way out of what you behaved your way into i like that that's a great quote for the podcast notes well dan thank you very much for sharing your your your experience and your vulnerabilities today especially and also thank your wife because i think that was a brilliant story that was a seminal moment and obviously in your life and in her life that was a brilliant brilliant story.
I will, Jason. Thank you. It was really a pleasure, man. I enjoyed meeting you.

[1:00:37] Music.

[1:00:43] In the second part of our conversation, Dan introduced the concept of a spectrum in conversations with victimhood on one end and responsibility on the other.
He noted that those leaning towards victimhood often blame others where they don't take responsibility.
It's a stance he likened to a criminal mindset. In contrast, adopting a mindset of responsibility, well, it involves recognizing and owning one's actions and their impacts.
Dan's observations extend into organizational dynamics, where he delineated the roles individuals play in response to change.
He highlighted that roughly 20% of people in an organization are change advocates, another 20% resist change, which he called lovelers, and the majority, about 60%, are undecided, or fence-sitters.
Now, for Dan, the key to successful change management, well, it lies in engaging the undecided majority. by demonstrating how change serves their interests, thereby encouraging them to embrace new initiatives.
Then our conversation turned into talking about the strategies for implementing change, with Dan advocating for bold, decisive action over incremental adjustments.

[1:01:57] He stressed the importance of crafting a compelling narrative that encourages ownership and buy-in, underscoring that conflict and diversity of thought are natural outcomes of change.
Dan differentiated between normal, abnormal, and pathological problems, emphasizing the importance of identifying and addressing the most pressing issues effectively.
At the tail end of Part 2, Dan delivered a powerful message.
You can't explain your way out of what you've behaved your way into.
Encapsulating the theme that actions speak louder than words, and genuine change requires more than just verbal commitment.

[1:02:35] It necessitates tangible action and personal accountability.
You know, this episode not only illuminated the psychological aspects of facing change, but also provided practical insights on navigating the complexities of personal growth and organizational transformation, all through the lens of Dan's rich experience and thoughtful analysis.
Hey, Dan, I just want to send you a personal thank you from me to you for a very engaging, enriching conversation.
So thanks very much Dan I appreciate it well folks here we are at the tail end of another episode thank you for joining me for another week and allowing me to be part of your week if you have any questions or comments please send them my way I'm always open to hearing what you guys have to say so thanks for that, well folks until next week until the next time we continue this conversation.

[1:03:25] Music.